JG: When I’m in nature, especially in the rainforest, when I’m alone in nature, I feel like I’m an integral part of it. I remember one day I was in the forest. There are no chimpanzees around, but there are birds, insects and beautiful foliage. I thought to myself, well, this is the great spiritual power of nature that I feel all around me, and I think there is a spark of this spiritual power in each of us, and because we are human, we like to name everything, so we Call it soul or spirit, I thought, there is a little spark of spiritual power in every plant, every insect, and every animal. So, if we humans have souls, then so do all other beings. Nature is alive. I felt the spiritual power of nature. Being surrounded by nature will give you a wonderful feeling of oneness with the universe. This is what I mean by our spiritual connection with nature.
SK: But we live in the age of the Anthropocene, in a man-made world. People living in cities have little connection with nature and everything they have is man-made. There are very few wild animals in the city. With so much urbanization, how do people connect with nature?
Jaeger: We must revise and redesign our cities. One way forward is urban tree planting, because when you plant a tree, you bring nature into the city. Along with the trees come birds and insects. If you go through a big city, if you go through affluent areas, you see nice tree-lined streets, and beautiful gardens and parks, and then you come to a place that’s all cement, concrete, and austere area. That’s where the poor live. We have to work in these areas and bring nature there. There is an experiment in Chicago. They took two high crime areas and started greening one of them, where they planted trees and flowers. You know, the crime rate has dropped dramatically there. Then they quickly did it for another place where crime levels didn’t drop. Once again they are witnessing profound changes in the field. We need to green our cities. In Japan, they invented something called forest bathing. City dwellers spend time in the forest and experience the healing power of nature. Doctors prescribe time in nature, because nature is therapeutic, nature heals. So let’s bring nature back to our cities. Of course nature and culture should coexist.
SK: You gave your life to save chimpanzees and there are many other conservationists protecting rhinos, tigers and elephants, but we also have to take care of our little species, insects, flowers, birds and many other small animals that live in the jungle , and also live in cities.
Jaeger: Yes, because these little creatures are actually the foundation of everything else. One of the tragedies of our time is that industrial agriculture is destroying the biological composition of soils. By cutting down trees and killing the soil with artificial fertilizers, we are disrupting the natural balance of life. We need to go back to small-scale farming, regenerative farming, permaculture and agroecology. This is what we need to do. We know how to make the world a better place, but do we have the will to do it?
SK: Yes, you and I both know, but we are only a few. If you look at the big corporations and corporations that are responsible for industrial agriculture, engaging in genetic engineering, producing heavy machinery, artificial fertilizers, and artificial intelligence, they don’t seem to know. However, they dominate food production. Governments around the world don’t seem to know either. So how do we bring this information into the world of factory farms and agribusiness? How do we convince them that we need to produce food without harming biodiversity and wildlife?
Jaeger: Well, let’s start with the good news. There are some big companies that are actually changing right now. They’re not just greenwashing.
A few weeks ago, I was talking to the CEO of a major company and he said, “Jane, for the past eight years, I’ve been trying to make my business ethically, environmentally and socially responsible.” He said there are three reason. “First, I saw the writing on the wall, we are using our natural resources faster than nature can replenish them, and if we continue business as usual, it’s over. Second is the pressure to consume. People are starting to demand ethical Products. Young people and kids are also telling their parents: I don’t want that, it’s palm oil from unsustainable plantations. I don’t want that, with factory-farmed animals in it.” Then he said, “Yeah. For me, the thing that really changed the scales happened about 10 years ago. My little girl came back from school at 8 and she said, ‘Dad, they told me that what you’re doing is hurting the planet. It’s not true. , is it, Dad? Because this is my planet.'”
SK: This is good news, but the whole world is still following biologically and ecologically damaging practices, and the EU is subsidizing such destructive large farms. In the US and Australia, large industrial-scale farms are dominating. You and I are talking about family farms and small scale farms. How will we change the wider world? Do you still have hope? time is limited.
JG: Well, Satish, if you think about the changes that have taken place in the last 10 years, they are remarkable. If you think about the heightened awareness even during the pandemic, that’s pretty remarkable. Think of how many people now realize that we need a different relationship with nature, we need a more sustainable, greener economy, and we have to stop thinking that everything is an annual increase in GDP, at a price in the future. This number is very large and encouraging. These changes will act as catalysts. They gave me hope.
The thing I find that doesn’t work is putting blame and guilt on people. If you reach out to senior officials or CEOs and you tell them they’re bad people, don’t understand what they’re doing, they have to change, they have to change, that’s not a constructive approach. Then they won’t listen because they’re thinking, how can I argue, why is this guy telling me I did everything wrong? But if you can find a way to get in there and open their hearts, then you have a chance to change them because real change comes from within.
SK: I agree. Our actions must be driven by love – not anger, not fear, not anxiety, not preaching, but love.
Jaeger: Yes, this is where the hope lies. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are really ignorant, maybe they don’t understand yet. Some businessmen have grown up in this tough business environment, in this cruel world, and they haven’t really thought about what they’re doing, so getting them to see the light is a tough task! You have to have feelings for people. You have to have love in your heart and try to connect with their hearts and help them understand that caring is naturally in their best interest. Then they will feel better and they will change. This is a nonviolent way of changing the world.
this author
Satish Kumar is Elegant and simple. He is the founder of Resurgence Trust and the owner and issuer of Resurgence Trust. ecologist online.
The Book of Hope: A Guide to Surviving on an Endangered Planet by Jane Goodall and Douglas Abrams is review here. listen The full conversation between Satish Kumar and Jane Goodall. read A longer version of this interview.
